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But Fyodor,
>
> 1) programming competence,
> 2) knowledge of a particular language.
>
> 1) is much harder to acquire than 2).
> Any student who's capable of learning to program in Oberon/Component Pascal well enough, will learn the syntax of C in no time.
> And if a student is not smart enough to learn the syntax of C after learning to program in Oberon/Component Pascal, s/he should better not touch C (or Java, not to say C++) at all, ever.
>
Does this then not again lead into Ivory Tower thinking? CP is for learning how to do it right, and when we go to real problems, we use real languages like C++ and Java.
>
> It is significantly easier to develop complex stuff e.g. in CP and then port it to C/C++ in a more or less mechanical fashion than to develop in C from scratch.
> There are plenty of examples, including my own experience (e.g. the CP vs C++ comparison I reported in this list recently).
> There are programmers in Moscow who do just that without mentioning to their Western (actually, German) clients that they only port to C++ fully debugged programs written in Pascal.
See, and a good policy could be to include a cross-compiler to C++ and Java. Then there would be no need to do the work in Oberon and then do it again in "a real language". We could even go so far as to develop a .dll in CP, and then for
documentation produce a source in C++, if you understand what I mean.
>
> Students who learned to program that way will have a competitive advantage -- irrespective of which (procedural) language they will have to do with.
> The only problem is, whether the education system rewards teachers who offer that kind of competitive advantage to their students.
> If it does not, e.g. in Germany, then all the programming industry will eventually move to other countries where it does.
Forget the teachers. M2 was used quite a bit in education, but it was hardly used in the "real world". If you want to get real money, you should see the world from the POV of a manager. What does a manager want from software development? It
has to be fast and cheap. That's it. Sell OuS to the managers, and the technical guys will use it.
>
> Lastly, on money vs competitive advantage.
> Recall the mammals who had been surviving in the era of dinosaurs for millions of years before they got a fair chance to demonstrate their competitive advantages.
> (They had in fact been demonstrating them during the dinosaurs' reign, only the dinosaurs did not pay attention.)
> The dinosaurs' power ('money') helped them (the dinosaurs) for quite a while -- but did not save them in the end.
Amen. You can hunt cows by driving them down a cliff, or you can throw stones at them. Both'll work. If you throw stones, you have to really aim at your target. That's the secret. But if you don't have the masses (money) to drive the cows
and you are unable to aim (know your target, and support and advertise them), you'll starve.
Rene
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Received on Sun Feb 08 2004 - 22:54:49 UTC