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Fyodor,
>> > Does this then not again lead into Ivory Tower thinking? CP is for >>learning how to do it right, and when we go to real problems, we use >>real languages like C++ and Java.
>
>No. The first language is extremely important as a formative experience.
>Fortran programmers think (and actually write) fortran when they turn
>to other languages. Students whose first experience was with
>Oberon/CP will think and write correspondingly.
I'll drink to that! Yet, the main focus of marketing should NOT be on education, but on problem solving, I believe.
>> See, and a good policy could be to include a cross-compiler to C++
>>and Java.
>
>Yes, that's a project that suggests itself.
Glad we agree here.
>> to do the work in Oberon and then do it again in "a real language".
>
>More examples: "Oberon--unrecognized jewel", "although not widely >supported commecially"...
>This kind of word use is a message to any bystander not to bother.
>
>Let's watch our tongues even in this mailing list.
That's exactly the reaction I wanted to provoke!!
There's that story about house ducks who came together to learn how to fly. And after their first flight, they were all cheering how marvellous it is to fly ... and then they walked home.
Either CP is (or should be) for the "real world", then let's focus on this, and delete the thought from our minds that to really solve a problem we have to fall back to Java, C++ or any other language.
>> M2 was used quite a bit in education, but it was hardly used in
>>the "real world".
>
>Some large-scale projects based on M2 seem to fall into "classified"
>category...
Compare the usage of M2 to the usage of C or even ugly C++, and you know what I had in mind. I didn't say it was NEVER used, only that it was HARDLY used.
See, the problem is always the same: It takes an European to invent a real cool thing. It takes an American to make it work, and a Japanese to make money with it. Think of Fuzzy Logic for instance....
The reason for this is that Europe sits in the Ivory Tower. That's what I mourn.
>> It has to be fast and cheap. That's it.
>
>No. It also has to be correct and reliable. Understanding on the part of
>managers that these qualities depend on the language used is only
>achieved slowly. In the more mission-critical areas it is there. From
>there, it will trickle down elsewhere.
Agreed. But where do you see CP being in the heads of management reps?
>> You can hunt cows by driving them down a cliff, or you can throw
>>stones at them. Both'll work. > If you throw stones, you have to really
>>aim at your target. That's the secret.
>> But if you don't have the masses (money) to drive the cows
>> and you are unable to aim (know your target, and support and
>>advertise them), you'll starve.
>
>When there are no cows in sight, only faster and smaller creatures, >stone-throwing will be one's only chance to escape starvation.
Right. And you won't eat much if you just throw your stones without aiming - or even knowing your target.
Rene
Cheers
-------------------------
Fyodor.Tkachov{([at]})nowhere.xy
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Received on Mon Feb 09 2004 - 11:46:56 UTC