(unknown charset) Re: [BLACKBOX] Read-only IN parameters for all data types

From: (unknown charset) Oleg N. Cher <"Oleg>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:53:15 +0200

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Hi Chris,

>What we would call a 'double-edged sword' - but I don't agree.

Yes, it is that I wanted to say, thank you :-)

>> - Parameters IN can be used for building of more
>> optimal machine code, in some cases. (+)
>Yes. Particularly so for large arrays and records. It means that the
>programmer does not have to resort to the 'kludge' of passing such large
>read-only parameters as VARs just for reasons of efficiency. This dubious
>practice has the associated real risk that the parameters could be
>inadvertently modified.

It is serious argument. As a way of additional secure,
the obvious indication of an invariance. And why you
do not want to use for this purpose CONST? Instead of IN ?

Using of CONST is logically continuation of using VAR:
CONST indicates that parameter is guarded for read-only,
VAR indicates that parametr may change. It's Oberon-style.

>Language features that give optimisation hints to the compiler are not a new
>concept in Oberon. e.g. INC and DEC, FOR loops (partially so - not to the
>same extent as in Pascal though), etc.

INC/DEC maybe for optimization. Though it is convenient
for using, and for the indication of monotonously
increasing or decreasing value. And I do not see the reasons
on which it would be impossible to optimize this:

  a := a + 1;

Just simply two various ways of recording which became
habitual since Pascal/Modula times.

Cycle FOR though it a little also is ambiguous, but very
convenient for programming. Its analogue is practically
in all programming languages.

Btw, I used compiler of Oberon (not Oberon-2) for MS-DOS.
It has not cycle FOR :-) That is shown by some inconvenience
in programm, the way of recording turns out hardly
more bulky and not so clear.

Other curious moment, that the high portability occuring
(from following to the standard has led) to that I
practically invariable broadcast game sources from
old MS-DOS Oberon-1 Compiler to modern Component Pascal.
The only thing that is requiring in the amendment these
are EXTENSIBLE RECORDs.

I ascertain very good compatibility Component Pascal with
an old Oberon, not speaking already about Oberon-2.
All this allows me to use BlackBox as the compiler
of Oberon giving very small EXEcutables to an output.

>The precedent has already been set - Component Pascal
>is not standard Oberon.

It is other strong standard around of which everyone are
going to and which has many chances to become a new
beacon of component programming in general.

And as we know, your project called Microbe, but not
MicrComPas ;-)
  
>> - Here the compiler can understand, that parameter IN
>> does not change anywhere (at second pass in moment of
>> compiling. More difficultly if compiler is one-passed).
>> So the obvious indication of IN from the given point
>> of view is excessive. (-)
>It is no more difficult in a one-pass Component Pascal compiler as all items
>have to be declared before being used as a formal parameter.

However if it is not specified (as is now made) the compiler
does not know, whether the parameter will change inside
a body of procedure. Until then it will not change.

I have thought: after first pass the compiler will knows
whether the parameter changes. And in moment of second pass
will be generated corresponding optimal code.

>> I want to say what. When the programmer describes
>> the decision a tasks - it is the most important for him
>> WHAT is done, instead of HOW. And so IN here is an
>> indication to the compiler HOW more effectively to generate
>> a code instead of WHAT programmer wanted to say about an
>> algorithm of program.

The Oberon (and Component Pascal) is very useful to us to those,
that hides low-level details of realization. For example:

PROCEDURE Do* (VAR a: INTEGER; b, c: INTEGER);

C language:

extern "C" __declspec(dllexport) void stdcall Do (int &a, int *b, unsigned int c);

And it very much helps our thinking to concentrate on features
of our problems, but not on realization details. -
inline, calling model (stdcall or maybe other?), using procedure
in DLL only, transfering parameters by an adress, by a pointer, or as value?)
All these complexities very much reduce our programmer's efficiency.

And I have made the shy remark, that parameters IN yet will need
to be written down in almost each procedure, and it will make your
Microbe sources incompatible with Component Pascal/Oberon-2.

Can be eat sense to make some various additions of the standard,
but to try to realize them in one compiler? Especially in view
of that people like to create own standards. And then also
we shall see which of them there is more hardy.

>That is how Oms have approached the implementation of IN parameters -
>primarily for efficiency purposes rather than improved expressiveness.

Yes, but as far as we know BlackBox compiler is one-passed.
In principle, is a method to generate optimal code on-the-fly.
For this, I propose generate two variants of the code:
one for unchanged arguments, another for changed, and,
after the ending of procedure, to insert the necessary variant.

>However, I see the real usefulness of IN parameters as part of a bigger
>picture. (Before reading on - note that I am *NOT* not proposing that
>Component Pascal should introduce these ideas)

Hmmm.. Component Pascal should be a little bit conservative
to not incorporate all rattles and knickknacks, and to remain
more or less constant core (nucleus) for several years.
Now it looks very modern but who knows that will be after 20 years? :-)

>One of the most common errors for new programmers (and not-so-new
>programmers!) using Pascal-heritage languages is to pass a parameter by
>value when it should have been passed by reference:
>
>e.g.
>
>PROCEDURE Double(i: INTEGER);
>BEGIN
> i := i * 2
>END Double;
>
>(This example is perhaps too trivial - in the real world the prcoedure would
>be much more complex and the mistake more easily overlooked)

The transfering of parameters concepts of language C ( & * )
are much more complex than for understanding, than a way
accepted in Pascal. But I agree with you - such mistakes happen.
But beginners in Oberon can admit such mistake once. While
they will understand a difference of transfers by value and by reference.

But before the beginners having a chanse to make such mistake,
the beginners should choose for itself Oberon as a language to working.
Then he should choose the compiler. But with a choice of language,
the beginner understands, that there is no uniform an Oberon.
He should choose among various subsets of Oberon (with different
names, and with very partly compatiblity), and every platform has
unofficial features. If he need works in .NET - he must know
Zonnon, or, maybe GPCP to choose?)

All it puts the beginner in the big difficulty from which he finds
exit in uniform and safe (and well supported) C#.NET or still something.

>I'm also sorry if I have misinterpreted some of your comments - I did have a
>little difficulty fully understanding some of the things you were trying to
>say - but nothing too major I hope!

Yes, nothing too major :-)
Thank you, you are serious opponent.
And I do not see anything bad in the project Microbe,
probably each programmer should reach the language...

But really I do not need the Oberon for ARM (or .NET, it doesn't matter)
only, compatible with itself only. Because ARM (or Windows, or .NET, etc)
it yesterday a novelty, today wide it is used, and tomorrow it is too obsolete.

Instead of it I want uniform constant years a formal way of recording
algorithms and one standard language (let an Oberon-2) the compiler,
which can build programs for old, modern and future devices and platform.
It is a sight in the future and the past simultaneously.

Some things switched in Oberon-SA seem to me doubtful for
convenient programming. Its can appear useful only for optimization.
For example, what in convenience of restriction CASE that
all elements of a choice followed successively?
Or, only one size of type INTEGER? Good, let it will be only 32 bits,
but as with it to save memory allocating the big array of small numbers {0..7}?

I think more likely, that the Oberon-SA is a hobby of Prof. Wirth, than
the serious industrial decision, But I can be not right.


Oleg N. Cher,
Colossoft Research.
allot{([at]})nowhere.xy
2008-02-20

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Received on Wed Feb 20 2008 - 16:53:15 UTC