RE: BB-Future

From: [at]} <Wojtek>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:05:57 -0400 (EDT)

----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-1819742211_-_-
Content-type: text/plain

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, CFB Software wrote:

I reordered your paragraphs and edited your message a tiny bit because
of reordering:

> Any attempts to make complete environments portable suffer from two
> problems - either
>
> a) the lowest common denominator approach has to be used, resulting in a
> system that is less than useless

> The above is successful where the user wants to run the system on
> non-compatible hardware. e.g. I can run ETH Oberon without having to buy
> a Ceres system, a Macintosh user can run Windows in Virtual PC without

> buying Windows hardware.

"Less than useless" is too strong. I have done lots of work in Windows 2k
ran in VMWare under Linux and it was very useful. The alternative would be
either dual boot machine or two machines on the same desk, both of which
were too unwieldy. So there is merit in running one OS under emulator in
another OS. I guess every computer scientist would shiver, but these ugly
solutions do work in practice.

> b) the resulting system is so foreign to the users of all of the host
> environments that it is not accepted

This has been conclusively proven with ETH Oberon that has solved
virtually all portability problems, but yet has been rejected.
It is a sad story. I still remember being able to develop under Windows
and run under Linux and Solaris, or vice-versa. All my programs and data
files were portable. Yet, ETH Oberon wilted and portability is as big
a problem as it used to be. Every computer scientist should lament,
but this was the final lesson. Ugly.

> I consider that BlackBox in its current form will still be useful for at
> least five years even if no further development was to happen. Win32
> still has a lot of momentum. Making BB Open Source minimises the fear of
> loss of future support and also gives an opportunity for enthusiastic
> individuals to add small-scale, but very useful, new capabilities e.g.
> the tabbed document interface in the IDE that I enquired about recently.

Actually, there is lots of BB development, but otside the mother company.
I hope Oms has recognized the enormity of effort put into BB applications

by the community. The minimal Oms role should be to preserve that effort
by making BB a viable platform to be had on future revisions of Windows,
such that the application base can be used. I dare not say what could be
a "maximal Oms role", but the minimal role seems clear.

W.

--------------------------------------------

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message containing the word "unsubscribe" to:
   blackbox-request{([at]})nowhere.xy

To get a list of valid e-mail commands and instructions on their usage, send a message containing the word "help" to the above address.

Send any problem reports or questions related to this email list to the list owner at
   owner-blackbox{([at]})nowhere.xy

Current posting policy:

a) To post you should use the same address by which you are subscribed to the mailing list. That way, the list server will recognize you as subscriber and forward your posting immediately, without creating any overhead.

b) If, for some reason, you cannot post from the address, by which you are subscribed, your message will be moderated to avoid spam. Please understand that moderation will often cause some delay, in particular over weekends or holydays.


----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-1819742211_-_-
Content-type: application/rtf
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rtf-body.rtf"
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----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-1819742211_-_---
Received on Fri Oct 22 2004 - 15:05:57 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.0 : Thu Sep 26 2013 - 06:28:33 UTC