Re: [BLACKBOX] Project Oberon - FPGA

From: [at]} <Wojtek>
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 09:39:35 -0500

----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-180281402_-_-
Content-type: text/plain

> > Interesting that he is using Verilog rather than LOLA.
> I was surprised as well, first I've read about it.
> He also has a speech, don't remember where, I guess at the google event
> in Zurich, where he shares his experience with the verilog toolchain. I
> mean, he didn't like the workflow.
> Why he has to use ready solution instead of writing it's own - I also do
> not understand. Not similar to what he usually does. So I wonder which
> are the reasons.

I said "interesting". I did not say "surprising". I am using VHDL which I
like better than Verilog, but it is also part of the same toolchain. One
can almost freely mix the two languages. My experience, like everyone
else's, is similar to NW's experience. But we have to either use the
manufacturer's toolchain, or some other vendor, which are all very similar
to one another.

In a nutshell, translation from the HDL into the "sea of gates" is such an
enormous problem that nobody wants to touch it except the manufacturer or
those vendors, who are in the same business. LOLA was conceived when the
programmable logic was relatively very simple. Not anymore. I heard of a
version of LOLA compiler which translated into EDIF, that is an
intermediate representation which the manufacturer's toolchain can
swallow. But this version was never released into the public.
Unfortunately, I guess.

I do not like Verilog look-and-feel, so I do not use it. I find VHDL
tolerable in a similar way as C++ is tolerable. One has to learn what NOT
to do. One has to develop one's own style and stick to it. Tricks and
smarts are the road to hell. Once I learned what not to do (I am still
learning), FPGA programming becomes one more task which is tractable.

Concerning the NW's work on the FPGA and the new Oberon System, it would
have been very interesting if it was released in full such that it could
be exercised. Not the case (yet?).

W.

----
To unsubscribe, send a message with body "SIGNOFF BLACKBOX" to LISTSERV{([at]})nowhere.xy----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-180281402_-_-
Content-type: application/rtf
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rtf-body.rtf"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=
----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-180281402_-_---

Received on Sun Feb 19 2012 - 15:39:35 UTC