(unknown charset) Re: [BLACKBOX] Seasoned Linux.

From: (unknown charset) [at]} <Norayr>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:57:23 +0400

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As the talk is about operating systems, translating kernels, etc, I
would like to bring my bit:
First of all, what do we mean by saying Linux? Linux kernel or GNU
system on top of it? RMS says system is GNU, it works with Linux. And he
is right, by taking into consideration that POSIX is implemented in GNU
libraries and not Linux kernel. What about the Unix concept and a Linux
kernel, then, let's not forget that Unix itself is not a modern system
by design.
There's Plan9 and Inferno, both influenced by Oberon, besides.
Even ACME, Rob Pike's text editor from the first glance reminded of
Oberon TUI ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_%28text_editor%29 ) to me.

Linus tries to bring what he is able to bring from Inferno and Plan9 to
the Linux kernel. That's how /proc appeared there, that's how Plan9
namespaces are now in the kernel.

But what is not possible to bring, is a concept of different pieces of
software running in the same address space. Just because the majority of
the userspace applications, for example GNU tools, are written in C. On
the contrary, in Inferno Limbo prevents to damage other proces's memory
just as Oberon compiler prevented it in the Oberon operating system. And
that is why system call in AOS/A2 is 30 times faster than in Linux -
just because there is no overhead with context switch.

I would like to mention two Google projects:
Google Go by Rob Pike (creator of ACME, Limbo, Plan9...)
Android

Go is very much inspired from Oberon. It has a lot of similarities with
Modula, and there's even so called Goroutines instead of Modula's
coroutines.
Android is a new operating system which does not use most of the
GNU/Linux userspace applications. Majority of applications is written in
Java, where pointer ariphmetic is not used (it is possible to do
non-safe things in Java, but that's not usual way of development), so,
actually Android could have new design, by taking Inferno kernel (which
is GPL now) or changing Linux kernel address space model. They didn't do
that, probably because it would require more effort, and they do not
really care about beautiful design, they care about money. It's
business. (and nothing personal therefore).

But, in the Go IRC group there are always hundreds of people online. In
the Modula-2/Oberon IRC groups - not more than 10 usually.
FreePascal and Ada groups have approximately 50 online members each.
This is what money and promotion do.


 Sincerely,
Norayr Chilingarian

On 01/11/11 07:05, Douglas G. Danforth wrote:
> Antony,
>
> "So how many Oberon programmers does it take to equal the Linux kernel
> development community?"
> I suggest 3, along with a good set of translation tools.
>
> -Doug Danforth



>
> On 1/10/2011 5:43 PM, Antony Tersol wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Douglas G. Danforth
>> <danforth{([at]})nowhere.xy
>>
>>
>> ...snip...
>>
>> From that publication we find
>>
>> 'Outdated programming languages are still
>> in use today and a pithy comment made by
>> the famous Swiss computer scientist,
>> Niklaus Wirth, is appropriate in this context:
>> “It is indeed absolutely surprising with
>> which equanimity the notational monster C
>> was accepted by the world-wide
>> programmer’s community.”'
>>
>> -Doug Danforth
>>
>>
>> As I recall, both C and Unix (written in C) originated with AT&T. Unix was
>> provided at no cost to universities, so if one wanted to delve into the OS,
>> one learned C.
>>
>> Programmers tend to like and will continue to use what they know. It was an
>> investment on AT&T's part, thinking that as computer science students moved
>> into jobs they would bring C and Unix with them.
>>
>> I remember articles in the computer press in the 1980s discussing whether the
>> next OS would be Unix, MSDOS or the UCSD p-system (based on p-code, and
>> running UCSD pascal, directly descended from ETH). Some of the (student)
>> developers of the UCSD p-system went on to form a company (Modula Systems?)
>> selling a version of Modula-2 which ran on Apple & Sage and other microcomputers,
>>
>> The advent of the IBM-PC led to the ascendency of MSDOS. It came free with
>> the computer, whereas the p-system was an option with added cost.
>>
>> The question becomes which more effectively maintains and improves Linux: a
>> legion of programmers working in one language or a much, much smaller group
>> working in another (Oberon). If, as we believe, Oberon is superior to C, then
>> rewriting the Linux kernel in Oberon could lead to increased interest,
>> especially if it was demonstrably eaiser to maintain and improve.
>>
>> I recall a study by IBM which showed that productivity of programmers did not
>> scale well as the number of programmers on a project was increased. As the
>> numbers increased, a greater and greater proportion of resources were diverted
>> to managing and communicating within the group.
>>
>> So how many Oberon programmers does it take to equal the Linux kernel
>> development community?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Antony Tersol
>> Solex / Applied Solar Energy
>> 831-333-1919
>>
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Received on Tue Jan 11 2011 - 18:57:23 UTC