(unknown charset) Re: [BLACKBOX] Mobile-device development

From: (unknown charset) Douglas G. Danforth <"Douglas>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:05:33 -0800

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Oleg,
Nicely said.

When BlackBox/Component Pascal first came out I was disappointed that
they gave up the uniform interface (look and feel) of Oberon V4 and instead
made the decision to have the environment look different on each operating
system, conforming to the standards for that operating system. This now
makes it more difficult to port BlackBox to new platforms since basic calls
to support the GUI must be made (via Host...) modules rather than
maintaining
a fixed set of libraries (including the GUI) which are implemented, as you
suggest, via back end compilation to the host hardware.

I have now grown fond of the Windows version of BlackBox but I can not
argue the case with employers that it runs on various flavors of unix
and that
they should try it.

A truly platform independent system that is *supported* is very needed.

-Doug Danforth


Oleg N. Cher wrote:
> Hello, all,
>
> Yes, Chris, my native language is Ukrainian.
> But Oberon-2 is my native language too :-)
>
> I shall start from apart. As shows the experience,
> new computer systems appear always. In 90 it were
> ZX Spectrum, Atari, Amstrad CPC, Amiga, MSX, etc.
> Now it Palm OS, WinCE, Symbian, J2me. There are new
> processors with new sets of commands.
> And they will continue to appear.
> In view of it, very attractive it is represented
> to have one programming system for the whole class
> of these devices. Advantages: if this crossplatform system
> will be enough serious for the big circle of tasks,
> people should not learn constantly modern languages
> and technologies. In fact among subscribers of this
> conference not only programmers, but experts of other
> trades who need deeper interaction with a computer.
>
> Besides in process of occurrence of new processors
> and pocket devices it is enough to make only new
> Back-end for the compiler and specific libraries.
>
> Why such system till now has not appeared is a riddle.
> BlackBox Component Builder is very serious step aside
> occurrences of such system. But BlackBox is not able
> to generate yet a target code for various processors.
>
> Language Oberon-2 is represented to me having a more
> potential for built in systems. However,
> dear prof. Niklaus Wirth has been more interested
> in Oberon-system, than in occurrence of Oberon-compilers
> on various other platforms. I find many various
> realizations of language Oberon-2 for various platforms,
> but now there has come time to have one compiler
> generating a code for everything, that only it is possible,
> which can be started everywhere.
>
> Chris, remember was such HiSoft Pascal for ZX Spectrum?
> It was very small compiler working on 48 KB a computer.
> Types of data INTEGER, CHAR (1 byte), BOOLEAN, REAL.
> An opportunity to work with files and records.
> (Last time, unicode set is used in embedded systems)
> The compiler was good, only very much is not enough memory.
> I think, there there was excessive a built - in input-output
> and floating arithmetics. The minimal program:
>
> PROGRAM Prog; BEGIN END.
>
> occupied after compilation of 7 KB. Due to inclusion in it
> of the unused opportunities. It is inadmissible. It could
> occupy 1 byte (RET).
>
> Various compilers have been written many, but all of them
> were incompatible on language and libraries. It is represented
> to me very attractive to build the program from one source code
> for a plenty of various devices. All platform features will be
> covered in corresponding modules, we will need to choose only target.
>
> Now your project Microbe - very interesting step aside occurrences
> of such system. However here I see the following features:
>
> 1. To realize full standard Oberon-2. Probably, with a optional
> opportunity of garbage collection. Language Oberon-2 is very small,
> and it can be realized for any platform to the full. Floating
> arithmetics can be emulated. Platform features and extensions
> (for example, unsigned data types) to move to module SYSTEM.
> The main thing that our compiler did not repeat mistake
> HiSoft Pascal, and did not include in a target code
> of superfluous things.
> 2. To provide expansions of opportunities of module SYSTEM which
> will be various for different platforms.
> 3. To develop the standard of uniform libraries for all platforms.
> That when the programmer uses only these libraries, he received
> a crossplatform code builded from one source code. Here we shall
> add modules Console, Graphic, Keyboard, Timer, Gui, etc.
> 4. Here there are 2 ways: 1) to use nucleus Oberon-2 with garbage
> collection and the dynamic module loader; 2) use Oberon-2 as language
> for writing of algorithms. That modules then must be linked statically
> and the program monolith was generated. It seems to me, such
> tendency will proceed still long time. Important goal:
> our hypothetical system should realize these both ways.
> 5. It is necessary crossplatform the crossassembler to develop modules
> with application of language the assembler. With a uniform
> to Oberon-2 objective format of files.
> 6. One more difficulty - an objective format of files. It is necessary
> crossplatform and a uniform format for the most various processors
> of different word length. It is possible to look narrowly at
> the format .ocf - it not only loadable, but also linkable.
>
> Oberon-2 -> Compiler
> + Standard libraries -> Linker -> Target
> Assembler -> Translator
>
> If I developed such programming system would make so.
> On basis COCO-R would develop Front-end for Oberon-2. In quality
> Back-end would try to use available GCC (GNU Compiler Collection).
> The greatest difficulty is standardization of libraries.
> And normal crossplatormness will not be without it.
>
> If there is a desire to go in the way, it is possible to not take GCC.
> And to make Back-end well-documented. It will give good chances
> of occurrence new code-generators for yours Microbe. Even, maybe,
> I shall make code generator for processor Z80 (used in ZX Spectrum).
> As a hobby :-)
>
> Chris, it is very important that your project did not begin for many
> as _a toy_ which has no enough opportunities for serious work.
> Therefore I wish you success.
>
> 'Microbe' - very good name for project :-)
>
> P.S. My attempt to make game is an attempt to clear what language
> features of Oberon-2 are really necessary, and it is impossible
> to do without them. And also attempt to understand how the set of
> uniform libraries could look, with opportunities, sufficient for
> a writing of simple graphic game.
>
>
> Oleg N. Cher,
> Colossoft Research.
> allot{([at]})nowhere.xy
> 2008-02-17
>
>
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>
>
>

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Received on Sun Feb 17 2008 - 08:05:33 UTC