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Content-type: text/plain
Hello, CFB!
CS> Avoid comparing chalk with cheese, apples with oranges etc. - it makes no
CS> sense.
CS> I've tried XDS (briefly) a couple of times and soon discovered that
CS> generally it is far inferior to BlackBox as a development system for Windows
CS> applications.
CS> If XDS supports Linux obviously it is currently infinitely better than
CS> BlackBox in that respect.
CS> Yes - building a freestanding fully-functional GUI app is tricky in
CS> BlackBox. However, it is next to impossible in XDS.
CS> However, if you do what you *have* to do in XDS, but is an *option* in
CS> BlackBox i.e. do GUI through the API, then the resulting BlackBox standalone
CS> executable can be built with a simple single statement e.g.
CS> DevLinker.LinkExe Bezier.exe := TestBezier $ ~
CS> and the resulting executable is a miserly 6KB. This is very easy to
CS> demonstrate - coincidentally, a few days ago, I translated one of Charles
CS> Petzold's classic Windows programming examples from the XDS Modula-2 version
CS> into BlackBox.
CS> The original was at:
CS>
http://www.winserion.org/Petzold/XDS/chap04/Bezier.mod.HTML
CS> My BlackBox version is included below.
CS> However, only a complete masochist would consider developing anything other
CS> than simple GUI examples in this way in this day and age.
CS> Where I do believe we agree with each other is that there is a real need for
CS> a BlackBox tool for building freestanding GUI applications that:
CS> a) Needs minimal user input
CS> b) Requires minimal knowledge of the murky depths of the BlackBox framework
CS> c) Only includes the modules that are absolutely necessary for the task at
CS> hand.
CS> The job appears to be about 90% done - it would be a pity if the remaining
CS> 10% couldn't be polished off.
You are right about all that. I was not advertising XDS, I was just
trying to say that right now we have two options for standalone
executables: big with GUI framework and small without. If we want
small executables with GUI, we must abandon portability and stick
with (OS name here) API. Then XDS is a better option, because it
actually optimizes code.
Now about the (c) part of your letter: how can we include only the
modules that are absolutely necessary? I'm thinking of come kind of
"dead code elimination": if a procedure is not reachable from
outside and is not used inside a module, it may be eliminated, thus
reducing code file size.
If we are to eliminate unnecessary code, when should we make
decision about which code is used and which is not?
At compile time we may analyze the module text and see which
procedures are exported (including BEGIN and CLOSE section handlers
of the module) and which are used by those exported, thus building
usage tree. The exported procedures are like global variables which
(a) may not be garbage-collected (eliminated) and (b) being roots in
the usage tree. If a procedure is not reachable from any root, it
must be eliminated.
But the true roots for entire project are known only at link time,
when a set of top-level modules is defined. This means that the
linking must not only staff module codes into a single file, but
analyze which local module-roots (i.e. exported elements) are
reachable from global project-roots.
And, of course, indirect procedure calls like Dialogs.Call,
Converters.Register, OleData.Register, menu resources, guards, links
and notifiers must be taken care of.
Does anybody know which of those optimizations are actually
implemented in BB? I think none. Even unused procedures which are
not exported are kept in module code file. A simple test shows that:
MODULE TestDeadElim;
PROCEDURE Test3;
VAR i: INTEGER;
BEGIN
FOR i := 0 TO 10 DO
END;
END Test3;
PROCEDURE Test2;
VAR i: INTEGER;
BEGIN
FOR i := 0 TO 10 DO
END;
END Test2;
PROCEDURE Test1*;
VAR i: INTEGER;
BEGIN
FOR i := 0 TO 10 DO
END;
END Test1;
END TestDeadElim.
Only the TestDeadElim.Test1 is exported. Try to compile the module
and watch the size of Test\Code\DeadElim.ocf. Then delete Test2,
recompile. Then delete Test3, recompile. The size of code file
reduces every time.
Returning to your point: "Only include the modules that are
absolutely necessary for the task at hand". I think BB includes only
necessary modules already. If you try to delete a module from the
pack list, you will get a run-time complaint about that module, and
the program won't start. That's because right now the only way to
eliminate a module from executable - is to eliminate it from all
framework's IMPORT clauses. Which means if you use a small subset of
the framework, you must link it all, because module dependecies are
too rough and general. If a bit of procedure-level sophistication is
added here, it would be possible to create much smaller standalone
files.
After I wrote all that, I thought: do we really have to? I think
Rene Krywult is right saying recently:
>So what? I can easily take a "normal" BB with the subsystem I want to
>publish and rid the BB of all subsystems I don't need, change the name
>of the menus.odc for all subsystems I need but don't want to show up,
>give the BB-exe an other name and change the icon. No need for a linker
>here, and almost no technical expertise necessary.
By cramming modules into a single EXE and crippling them along the
way what do we achieve? A customary file of a reasonable size? It
would be a good argument for converting a newbie. That would
certainly work for me: when I was choosing my development
environment, the file size was very a important criteria. As was the
independence of any preinstalled runtime libraries. I stopped at
Delphi, but that was 10 years ago. The age of 1.4Mb diskettes and
300Mb hard disks. Is that still so important in the age of .NET and
Java runtimes? A dumb simple Delphi7 GUI executable is 0.5Mb which
is about 2-3 times bigger than in Delphi3.
AFAIK, users don't worry about 1-2Mb of files installed in their
\Program Files\etc. 300-700Mb - that's what make them think. And if
you look at BlackBox.exe - it's only 87kb. So, why not copy all
necessary code files and keep them in subfolders? It will look
rather unusual, but who cares? Who cares about the number of DLLs
used or installed by a program? Maybe _I_ would prefer all code
files in a single subfolder (Sys or Bin) to keep user data nearby
and not lose it among subsystems, like this:
\Program Files\MyApp\BlackBox.exe
\Program Files\MyApp\BlackBox.ini
\Program Files\MyApp\UserData\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\Host\Code\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\Host\Sym\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\System\Code\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\System\Sym\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\Std\Code\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\Std\Sym\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\Text\Code\
\Program Files\MyApp\bin\Text\Sym\
The advantage of modularity is that you may update a subsystem code
files without reinstallation, and the patch will be small and quick.
Many big programs are struggling to achieve that, developing
separate packages, interfacing through COM from main EXE to menu or
a panel on the main form. And we get all that modularity for free.
---=====---
Alexander
--- BlackBox
--- send subject HELP or UNSUBSCRIBE to blackbox{([at]})nowhere.xy
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Received on Thu May 25 2006 - 08:06:47 UTC