RE: Blackbox Oberon in the real world

From: Wijck, Bart van <"Wijck,>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:10:03 +0100

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Hi Werner and Brett,

It's true that there are some very nice solutions about (also see Helmut
Zinn's email) which address at least some of the deficiencies of BlackBox or
add nice features to it. To a certain extent you can also argue that elegant
BlackBox + these extra subsystems + extensibility can be to some extent an
alternative for the real world heavy weights like Delphi or VB, which are
not without big problems either (overblown software, changes, bugs etc.) and
contain many features which arguably are not all needed.
Brett's conclusion seems on the one hand fair (yes, there are some pretty
fundamental issues) but perhaps a little too absolute (see possibilities
above). Or at least some things could be improved quite easily (see below).

A practical point is that one tends to expore earth (BlackBox) first before
seriously exploring the other planets (o2 software, Zinn's archive etc.).
The lack of a proper guide / primer to view programming (Stan's absolutely
correct) and other real world programming leaves one kind of hanging around
on planet BlackBox (eg I still do not understand complex views).

What struck me most about Brett's email, and that's the reason for this
email, is that some of the real deficiencies he notes could be put right
quite easily (!!).
- Yes there should be a serious ASCII module in core BlackBox. But how hard
is it to make one?
- Improving the GUI at least to some extent, surely not a huge problem?
- BB's file system, perhaps that is more of a problem.
- Finally the poor documentation and missing user guide (i.e. primer etc.).
It's a littlebit unfair for Helmut to just suggest that Brett should publish
his 175 page guide (I'm not sure I would want to publish my own map of
excerpts, cuttings, try-outs etc just like that). But there is a point
here. If someone with a good understanding of BlackBox plus a good pedagogic
sense (eg Stan Warford) would be prepared to act as an editor then people
could send him their material, questions etc. This editor could put this in
some sort of order, perhaps make some small revisions and note ommissions.
In summary rough editing, not writing or do lots of other work.
This could then be published and gradually improved further.
     
All that would begin to address 4 out of Brett's 5 central criticisms,
without a huge effort on behalf of anyone. Particularly the primer (which to
my mind can contain useful stuff or references from the rest of the BlackBox
universe too) would have a centralising function on how to do things instead
of the more vague notion that somewhere there's a feature which might help
(with due respect for Zinn's archive etc.).

Regards, Bart
  

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Werner Braun [mailto:wb{([at]})nowhere.xy
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:21 PM
To: brett
Cc: blackbox{([at]})nowhere.xy
Subject: Re: Blackbox Oberon in the real world



> Why :
> 1) terrible access to ASII text files, -- you know those files that

> everyboy use to pass data between unlike systems ??? I know you can work

> around such limitations -- most programmers say ' cant be bothered'

Hmm, have you tried our free "O³ Tools for BlackBox"?
In the Module O3stdFiles you find an CSV-Loader which helps much with
reading in ASCII-Data.

> 2) BB own file system is interesting , BUT, there is no way that I
could
> commit any development to using that , its too weird for general usage ,
> and it leaves your product totaly out on a limb if you wish to move your

> files to another system. However its more or less what I would expect
from
> a N.Wirth language product! :-)

We use the RTF export / import which enables using third pary software.

> After much scouting around I've 'probably' found the development
> environment "I" need. --- and its NOT OBERON :-)

Well and ours is definitly BlackBox.

-- 
mit freundlichen Grüssen
Werner Braun
O³ Software GmbH & Co. KG * Eichkamp 1 * D-24217 Schönberg
http://www.o3-software.de * Telefon: 04344 41417-2
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----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-954311620_-_---
Received on Tue Feb 11 2003 - 11:10:03 UTC

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