standard libraries - was: - STDOUT - Niklaus, Niklaus, NIKLAUS!

From: null <">
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:10:48 +0000

----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-1941808177_-_-
Content-type: text/plain

Hi Chris,

in principle I agree to your remarks

> Yes - and for very good reason. Removing IO from the language
> makes the compilers more portable / less OS-dependent.
> By moving IO statements out of the compiler and into the
> libraries, porting the language to new platforms means that
> the work of implementing IO facilities could be done by
> developers without compiler writing skills.

but I would like to add that I sincerely regret the
absence of standard libraries. But this was already
the case for Modula-2 and it was agggrevated with
Oberon. Althoug the disappearance of easy routines
for reading like ReadLn in favor of Scanners is a big
leap forward it prevents people from switching.

It requires refactoring of the own thoughts ...
something many people have problems with.

regards
--
	Bernhard Treutwein, IuK, Ref. III A 3
	Bernhard.Treutwein(at)verwaltung uni-muenchen de
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blackbox{([at]})nowhere.xy> Behalf Of CFB Software
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 2:46 AM
> To: BlackBox Mailing List
> Subject: [BlackBox] - STDOUT - Niklaus, Niklaus, NIKLAUS!
> 
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: blackbox{([at]})nowhere.xy> >Of Martin, Marc
> >Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2007 7:47 AM
> >To: BlackBox Mailing List
> >Subject: [BlackBox] - STDOUT - Niklaus, Niklaus, NIKLAUS!
> >
> >> How come the name Niklaus (Wirth presumably?) is in the subject? He
> >> didn't invent the Component Pascal language.
> >
> >Well, he was the one who removed READLN and WRITELN from 
> Modula-2 and 
> >Oberon, which Component Pascal is based.
> >
> 
> Yes - and for very good reason. Removing IO from the language 
> makes the
> compilers more portable / less OS-dependent. By moving IO 
> statements out of
> the compiler and into the libraries, porting the language to 
> new platforms
> means that the work of implementing IO facilities could be done by
> developers without compiler writing skills. 
> 
> He took the principle one step further with Oberon, and 
> attempted to make
> the whole operating platform portable. For the late 1980's 
> that was very
> prophetic. Only yesterday I was reading how VMs / virtualisation (e.g.
> VMWare, Virtual PC - not necessarily JVM or .NET) are the 
> 'next big thing'.
> 
> >Interestingly, the newer Zonnon language brings back READLN 
> >and WRITELN!  I don't know who's using this, though.  It 
> >doesn't appear that the compiler even corresponds to the 
> >latest definition of the language.
> >
> 
> I revisit Zonnon every few months - it has a lot of potential 
> but it isn't
> 'ready yet'. The primary attraction for me over Blackbox or 
> GPCP is its
> level of integration into Visual Studio 2005. However, from 
> what I know
> about the VS integration facilities, and experience I've had 
> beta-testing
> GPCP in VS 2003, I suspect this is a major cause of any implementation
> problems experienced by the developers.
> 
> >But anyway, I don't see what the big deal is... I've written 
> >codes in Pascal, Modula-2, Oberon-2, and Component Pascal, and 
> >the output files get written one way or another!  :-)
> >
> 
> Yes indeed. No offence intended to anyone but the saying 'A 
> poor workman
> always blames his tools' comes to mind. I am *currently* 
> actively writing
> code in Gardens Point Component Pascal, Delphi 2006, Blackbox 
> Component
> Pascal and, yes, Modula-2. The *KEY PRINCIPLE* to code reuse is to
> quarantine all of your UI / IO code into one or two separate 
> modules instead
> of having all of your modules littered with platform-specific 
> IO statements.
> 
> 
> Chris Burrows
> CFB Software
> http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
> 
> --- BlackBox
> --- send subject HELP or UNSUBSCRIBE to blackbox{([at]})nowhere.xy> 
----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-1941808177_-_-
Content-type: application/rtf
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rtf-body.rtf"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==
----boundary-LibPST-iamunique-1941808177_-_---
Received on Wed Aug 08 2007 - 12:10:48 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.0 : Thu Sep 26 2013 - 06:31:26 UTC